You may also want to take a meta-step back and notice that the space of the "home" and the space of the moral conflict are quite different in the two books.
In Dharma Bums the confrontation takes place in a family setting, where the home consists of a slightly extended nuclear family, whereas the site of the home in Tripmaster Monkey (published in 1990) is this funny place with peers.
There are student homes and parties in Dharma Bums too but these, for reasons which may be interesting, are not the site of moral confrontations.
You description of the different depictions of the bridge is great.
You're getting in some nicely assertive statements (quoted below) and I think that analyzing the film--how it says much more than it says directly, may be a good way of digging into and focusing your topic.
(although you should also discuss what the film leaves out)
Good statement/example pair:
"The bridge’s grandeur eclipses the death."
"As they listen to a terribly sad personal story, viewers focus more on the capitalist appropriation of the bridge. Kevin’s troubles are glossed over and hidden by the beauty and tourism, just as the truth is purposely hidden by the same tactics in reality."
This is an interesting question what were whites doing during the Alcatraz Island takeover?
"Last week, when I was re-reading Snyder’s “The Rediscovery of Turtle Island,” he mentioned that most whites weren’t aware or weren’t doing much to assist in the Native American Civil Rights/Renaissance Movement in the Bay Area in the 1960s and 1970s."
I wonder if you can manage to pin down some specific folks--himself for example. Where was he when the Island was being taken over? Where was Ginsberg? Keroak was dead by then.
Can you find any pictures or examples of Ginsberg and Snyder playing with Native American themes and show how these referencings were either earnest (but not politically activating) or superficial? Or even just directed elsewhere than civil rights converns around integration and recognition?
You draw some great conclusions out of your comparison of Milk and Ginsberg. I didn't know that Milk sought a macho image. This is an important point. Ginsberg throws his sexuality into the face of society, partly as a rejection of pressure to be straight and partly for the shock value, I think. It is very confrontational and aggressive. The opposite, the willingness to completely repress sexuality to fit into society, is not the most successful way of being an activist, either. That middle ground, which you say Milk eventually occupied, is ideal. Sexuality shouldn't be hidden, but if someone truly wants to be a politician and make differences that way (which Ginsberg certainly did not), refraining from confrontation and shock is probably wise.
It is important to consider the societal pressures that would force homosexual individuals into either one of these extremes: either fit completely within society or extricate yourself from it. Milk is a revolutionary figure in that he was able to create a previously unoccupied niche for himself. He brought credibility to the gay community and diversity and alternative viewpoints to the professional community. He proved that there is no reason to draw a line between the two. These two worlds are not different worlds at all; they are merely interacting and overlapping communities that are often indistinguishable.
I found your comparison to be particularly interesting in that I found myself finding similar contrasts as you expressed.
I am researching the cultural impact of modern museums, and much of the information I found revolves heavily around tourism, rather than social impact.
I've discovered that most of the facts I learn are derived from tourist related information such as tours, or important sites.
I really enjoyed reading your comparison of the different readings and, in some way, it offers me suggestions for methods in which I can unveil more pertinent information involving my topic.
Wow, I really like your idea of addressing the influence of Time Magazine and other major media influences in the 1950s when the beats were big. Because the beat movement was very counterculture and pushed against the ideals projected by society, it’s definitely important to understand what exactly the beats were actually protesting against in order to understand their own values.
It would be interesting to contrast works of Ginsbergs like America against writing of mainstream 50s culture like Time Magazine.
I originally contemplated writing about the Native American occupation of Alcatraz and I'd like to recommend a few resources:
This one is a simple google time line: http://www.google.com/archivesearch?hl=en&q=native+americans+alcatraz&um=1&ie=UTF-8&scoring=t&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&resnum=11&ct=title
A book: Alcatraz: Indian Land Forever (Native American Politics; No. 4) (Paperback) by Troy R. Johnson
This book is published by the UCLA American Indian communities center and is the 25th anniversary publication.
An article: http://www.pluralism.org/news/article.php?id=11284
It talks about an ANTI-Thanksgiving at Alcatraz, which is very recent.
The national park services website talks about the occupation:
I agree that the Girl Scout Law and Promise seem slightly inappropriate. While I was never a girl scout, I had friends in elementary school who were and was never aware of how serious these oaths were. They both seem to be substantial and important, but they are obviously not anything that a little girl would be able to really consent to. I understand that the program is designed to make women more independent and to make them feel comfortable with themselves, but these laws seem unrealistic.
I also think the vocabulary does seem inappropriate but for a nation wide organization, it does make some sense. It makes the organization seem extremely serious when I look at is as more of an after school activity for young girls.
If every city actually did all of the things described in the laws, a community would be extremely different. While most people are considerate to one another, we are not always respectful or helpful.
I am also interested in the Native American occupation of Alcatraz, especially the complacency of privileged white U.S. citizens in reacting to the protest. In your paper I would advise against generalizing all white people as suppressing the equality of Native Americans; this could definitely harm your argument promoting reparations/civil rights. Your research thus far sounds like it's on the right track. Maybe you could also look into other movements in which Native Americans countered the objectives of U.S. colonialism--there are many to consider, and your argument would benefit from a few parallels such as these. Has any progress been made, in your opinion? Or have Native Americans regressed in attaining civil liberties? Just a couple questions to think about.
This is a really good fact to point out Allison, as it lends much to the common label of misogony to the male writers of the 1950's and onward. I recently did a presentation in the Kerouac senior seminar on a similar topic related to Kerouac's portrayal of women in his novels, and it is vital to note that the generational expectations of women during this time period clearly influenced the way these men write about women. Domesticity was needed from women in order to maintain a sort of homeostasis in the family life, and even if these men wanted to step outside of these boundaries when describing women they were clearly limited in their efforts to do so.
I think your investigation of nursery rhythms is really interesting and such a great way to dig at the more contradictory elements and ideas we have been discussing regarding San Francisco literature and monuments. For instances it seems odd to me that Alcatraz, a psychological nightmare for its former prisoners has become a popular, commodified tourist destination. Similarly, it is just as unsettling how things we sing to our children are often masked in horrible or dark circumstances. For example, the nursery rhythm Ring Around the Rosie:
Ring-a-ring-a-roses, A pocket full of posies; ashes! ashes! We all fall down.
Is said to be in reference to the Black Plague in London, and could reinterpreted as:
Symptoms of serious illness Flowers to ward off the stench We're burning the corpses We all drop dead.
Also, I find Rock a by Baby equally disturbing:
Rock-a-bye baby, in the treetop, When the wind blows, the cradle will rock, When the bough breaks, the cradle will fall, And down will come baby, cradle and all.
This is a common and popular rhythm, which references a Native American tradition of hanging cradles from trees and allowing the wind to rock the child to sleep. Unfortunately branches tend to break and cause harm to the child.
Why is it that we choose such sinister and dark rhythms to sooth our children? Likely these songs have simply gained popularity and many people are unfamiliar with their origin and meaning. How though did they become popular in the first place? Also is their popularity linked with our fascination and interest in dark places like Alcatraz?
I think you are definitely on the right track as far as Whitman being potentially inspired by Kerouac. However, I am having trouble meshing the two with the quote you chose to analyze. Kerouac doesn't ever strike me as the type who would consider suicide in any of his novels--although death and disillusionment are a completely different matter. I would say that Kerouac essentially is not a suicidal character, but he certainly has a way of killing himself with his drinking and other vices. Yet I think this is really a trifle and that your initial comparison is very reasonable and in fact arguable.
I think your idea is great! I’m also writing a paper on Ginsberg, and I feel like I’ve learned so much about him. If you have time at the end of your paper, you should copy a few covers of Time magazine, especially covers from the 40s-60s and attach them to the end of your paper, just as a reference to what was occurring in society during that time. Also, Ginsberg seems rather sarcastic in “America,” especially when blaming America’s problems on the Russians and Chinese. What do you think was running through his mind as he read the magazine?
14 comments:
Stacy,
You may also want to take a meta-step back and notice that the space of the "home" and the space of the moral conflict are quite different in the two books.
In Dharma Bums the confrontation takes place in a family setting, where the home consists of a slightly extended nuclear family, whereas the site of the home in Tripmaster Monkey (published in 1990) is this funny place with peers.
There are student homes and parties in Dharma Bums too but these, for reasons which may be interesting, are not the site of moral confrontations.
Howcome?
Sadie,
You description of the different depictions of the bridge is great.
You're getting in some nicely assertive statements (quoted below) and I think that analyzing the film--how it says much more than it says directly, may be a good way of digging into and focusing your topic.
(although you should also discuss what the film leaves out)
Good statement/example pair:
"The bridge’s grandeur eclipses the death."
"As they listen to a terribly sad personal story, viewers focus more on the capitalist appropriation of the bridge. Kevin’s troubles are glossed over and hidden by the beauty and tourism, just as the truth is purposely hidden by the same tactics in reality."
Kate/Snyer
This is an interesting question what were whites doing during the Alcatraz Island takeover?
"Last week, when I was re-reading Snyder’s “The Rediscovery of Turtle Island,” he mentioned that most whites weren’t aware or weren’t doing much to assist in the Native American Civil Rights/Renaissance Movement in the Bay Area in the 1960s and 1970s."
I wonder if you can manage to pin down some specific folks--himself for example. Where was he when the Island was being taken over? Where was Ginsberg? Keroak was dead by then.
Can you find any pictures or examples of Ginsberg and Snyder playing with Native American themes and show how these referencings were either earnest (but not politically activating) or superficial? Or even just directed elsewhere than civil rights converns around integration and recognition?
Diego/Harvey Milk
You draw some great conclusions out of your comparison of Milk and Ginsberg. I didn't know that Milk sought a macho image. This is an important point. Ginsberg throws his sexuality into the face of society, partly as a rejection of pressure to be straight and partly for the shock value, I think. It is very confrontational and aggressive. The opposite, the willingness to completely repress sexuality to fit into society, is not the most successful way of being an activist, either. That middle ground, which you say Milk eventually occupied, is ideal. Sexuality shouldn't be hidden, but if someone truly wants to be a politician and make differences that way (which Ginsberg certainly did not), refraining from confrontation and shock is probably wise.
It is important to consider the societal pressures that would force homosexual individuals into either one of these extremes: either fit completely within society or extricate yourself from it. Milk is a revolutionary figure in that he was able to create a previously unoccupied niche for himself. He brought credibility to the gay community and diversity and alternative viewpoints to the professional community. He proved that there is no reason to draw a line between the two. These two worlds are not different worlds at all; they are merely interacting and overlapping communities that are often indistinguishable.
Sadie,
I found your comparison to be particularly interesting in that I found myself finding similar contrasts as you expressed.
I am researching the cultural impact of modern museums, and much of the information I found revolves heavily around tourism, rather than social impact.
I've discovered that most of the facts I learn are derived from tourist related information such as tours, or important sites.
I really enjoyed reading your comparison of the different readings and, in some way, it offers me suggestions for methods in which I can unveil more pertinent information involving my topic.
Sam Evans—
Wow, I really like your idea of addressing the influence of Time Magazine and other major media influences in the 1950s when the beats were big. Because the beat movement was very counterculture and pushed against the ideals projected by society, it’s definitely important to understand what exactly the beats were actually protesting against in order to understand their own values.
It would be interesting to contrast works of Ginsbergs like America against writing of mainstream 50s culture like Time Magazine.
Kate,
I originally contemplated writing about the Native American occupation of Alcatraz and I'd like to recommend a few resources:
This one is a simple google time line:
http://www.google.com/archivesearch?hl=en&q=native+americans+alcatraz&um=1&ie=UTF-8&scoring=t&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&resnum=11&ct=title
A book:
Alcatraz: Indian Land Forever (Native American Politics; No. 4) (Paperback)
by Troy R. Johnson
This book is published by the UCLA American Indian communities center and is the 25th anniversary publication.
An article:
http://www.pluralism.org/news/article.php?id=11284
It talks about an ANTI-Thanksgiving at Alcatraz, which is very recent.
The national park services website talks about the occupation:
http://www.nps.gov/alcatraz/
Hope these help!
Rosa/Girl Scouts
I agree that the Girl Scout Law and Promise seem slightly inappropriate. While I was never a girl scout, I had friends in elementary school who were and was never aware of how serious these oaths were. They both seem to be substantial and important, but they are obviously not anything that a little girl would be able to really consent to. I understand that the program is designed to make women more independent and to make them feel comfortable with themselves, but these laws seem unrealistic.
I also think the vocabulary does seem inappropriate but for a nation wide organization, it does make some sense. It makes the organization seem extremely serious when I look at is as more of an after school activity for young girls.
If every city actually did all of the things described in the laws, a community would be extremely different. While most people are considerate to one another, we are not always respectful or helpful.
Kate,
I am also interested in the Native American occupation of Alcatraz, especially the complacency of privileged white U.S. citizens in reacting to the protest. In your paper I would advise against generalizing all white people as suppressing the equality of Native Americans; this could definitely harm your argument promoting reparations/civil rights. Your research thus far sounds like it's on the right track. Maybe you could also look into other movements in which Native Americans countered the objectives of U.S. colonialism--there are many to consider, and your argument would benefit from a few parallels such as these. Has any progress been made, in your opinion? Or have Native Americans regressed in attaining civil liberties? Just a couple questions to think about.
Allison/ Brautigan and Female Domesticity
This is a really good fact to point out Allison, as it lends much to the common label of misogony to the male writers of the 1950's and onward. I recently did a presentation in the Kerouac senior seminar on a similar topic related to Kerouac's portrayal of women in his novels, and it is vital to note that the generational expectations of women during this time period clearly influenced the way these men write about women. Domesticity was needed from women in order to maintain a sort of homeostasis in the family life, and even if these men wanted to step outside of these boundaries when describing women they were clearly limited in their efforts to do so.
Amanda,
I think your investigation of nursery rhythms is really interesting and such a great way to dig at the more contradictory elements and ideas we have been discussing regarding San Francisco literature and monuments. For instances it seems odd to me that Alcatraz, a psychological nightmare for its former prisoners has become a popular, commodified tourist destination. Similarly, it is just as unsettling how things we sing to our children are often masked in horrible or dark circumstances. For example, the nursery rhythm Ring Around the Rosie:
Ring-a-ring-a-roses,
A pocket full of posies;
ashes! ashes!
We all fall down.
Is said to be in reference to the Black Plague in London, and could reinterpreted as:
Symptoms of serious illness
Flowers to ward off the stench
We're burning the corpses
We all drop dead.
Also, I find Rock a by Baby equally disturbing:
Rock-a-bye baby, in the treetop,
When the wind blows, the cradle will rock,
When the bough breaks, the cradle will fall,
And down will come baby, cradle and all.
This is a common and popular rhythm, which references a Native American tradition of hanging cradles from trees and allowing the wind to rock the child to sleep. Unfortunately branches tend to break and cause harm to the child.
Why is it that we choose such sinister and dark rhythms to sooth our children? Likely these songs have simply gained popularity and many people are unfamiliar with their origin and meaning. How though did they become popular in the first place? Also is their popularity linked with our fascination and interest in dark places like Alcatraz?
Nick,
I think you are definitely on the right track as far as Whitman being potentially inspired by Kerouac. However, I am having trouble meshing the two with the quote you chose to analyze. Kerouac doesn't ever strike me as the type who would consider suicide in any of his novels--although death and disillusionment are a completely different matter. I would say that Kerouac essentially is not a suicidal character, but he certainly has a way of killing himself with his drinking and other vices. Yet I think this is really a trifle and that your initial comparison is very reasonable and in fact arguable.
Sam Evans// “America”
I think your idea is great! I’m also writing a paper on Ginsberg, and I feel like I’ve learned so much about him. If you have time at the end of your paper, you should copy a few covers of Time magazine, especially covers from the 40s-60s and attach them to the end of your paper, just as a reference to what was occurring in society during that time. Also, Ginsberg seems rather sarcastic in “America,” especially when blaming America’s problems on the Russians and Chinese. What do you think was running through his mind as he read the magazine?
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